Some thoughts on the Day of Silence
Suggestions for DOS volunteers (parents):
Bring cookies for the kids and teachers.
Bring some flowers to the front office ladies.
Offer to make copies, sort papers, or even grade tests.
Help clean beakers or wipe counters or whatever will help the staff.
Make sure you call ahead and let them know you are coming.
The parents who contacted me about DOS are not bullies. I know you love all the kids at HHS, not just your own. I pray the love of Christ will shine through you as you volunteer.
Please do not be intimidated by those who are turning this into a battle. It is not. God loves all kids and doesn't see the need to point out one group over another. Every child was created for God's purpose and is loved.
Bullying is a behavior rooted in a lack of respect for self and others. We can't talk (or not talk) our way out of a situation we behaved our way into. We have to behave our way out. That goes for the students and the school board.
Maybe DOS should be a day we all pledge to love one another a bit better; not because someone may be gay or transgender, but because we are all God-breathed and have intrinsic value.
Instead of a DOS, let's pledge to love one another every day.
Wendy Day
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55 comments:
I wish your intentions were really as loving as you say. If you want these parents to love all children, why are you having them protest this day? It seems as if a loving parent should support this day.
Hate and intolerance can’t be masked by calling it “love.”
I never called for parents to protest. The only thing I did was give them an alternative to pulling their kids from school that day.
There are a lot of folks in this town who are all for diversity, as long as it doesn't include folks like me (or what you think I am). That is a shame. I am happy to sit down with the Diversity Council or any other group any time and talk about these issues.
Wendy
armywife1 said...
“The suggestion to have them volunteer came from within the school system as a way to avoid students missing a day of instruction.”
armywife1 also said...
“The reason I suggested parents volunteer that day is because many have contacted me and told me they are pulling their kids out of school that day.”
So was it you or the school that made this suggestion?
armywife1 said...
“Many of you contacted me because you were concerned about the gay agenda being pushed by the organization GLSEN and even by some teachers.”
armywife1 said...
“I am not backing down from anything. I was merely clarifying that the idea to have parents volunteer wasn't born out of some plot to bully students or make teachers uncomfortable.”
I’ll give you credit for being a great back peddler, then again, you have had lots of practice.
Not sure why you would call me a backpeddler. It is true that parents told me they were concerned about a few teachers.
Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it isn't true.
“Our public schools are an unionized monopoly.”
Posted on Sat Feb 23, 2008 By Wendy Day
Wendy Day said…“I hear often how understaffed and overworked our folks are, here is a chance for them to have some free help. Sounds like a win-win.”
Hmmmmm, you’re concerned about the words back-peddling? How about spinning the truth? And twisting your words? Those words work better for ya?
Lucifer- you are right. I did say both of those things. They are both true.
I could say that the sky was blue today and I imagine you would find reason to call me a liar, a bigot and demand my resignation. (sigh)
Wendy, I appreciate the information you have provided on this issue. I will have a discussion with my high school students about this. That is really all parents need to do. Talk to their kids. If they are still not comfortable with the situation, they should keep their kids out of school for the day. But some day, these kids need to grow up and deal with issues on their own. These are the same high school students you want to behave like college students, right. I know I don't want a gang of parents in the school studying the students every move during the day. It will be very uncomfortable and intimidating to the students. There are enough distractions in that school already.
I think if you stand back and take a closer look at what you are doing, you will find that your suggestion of parents 'volunteering' on that day is a form of protest in itself. As a school board member, representing HPS, how can you suggest planning your own protest. I thought HPS has a pretty strong diversity policy. Are you following this diversity policy with your actions?
I understand parent have concerns about many issues, but it is not your job or charter to control every situation. Informing people is fine (and appreciated). If parents have issues with some teachers, you should instruct them to contact Bill Smith and Lynn Parrish with their concerns.
Speedy-
Thanks for your respectful post. I have been in touch with both Bill and Lynn about this issue. They both expressed concerns about students missing a day of instruction.
I am still not clear how this idea amounts to a protest. I know there are some absurd rumors out there about parents wearing terrible t-shirts. With that kind of thing being spread around, I am not surprised folks are worried.
As for our diversity resolution, if you haven't read it, I would suggest you do. It dictates that we will demand certain behavior from our community and that we even are striving for "diversity of character", whatever that means.
Wendy,
How do I go about volunteering. Do Is there a form to submit? Will a background change need to be performed.
My suggestion would be to contact the High School and ask about the background check. I will try to get some additional information for you.
Wendy, though all the discussion on this topic you have never provided any detail as to exactly what parents are concerned about. Could you provide some detail?
Protest expresses relatively overt reaction to events or situations, sometimes in favor, though more often opposed. Protesters may organize a protest as a way of publicly and forcefully making their opinions heard in an attempt to influence public opinion or government policy, or may undertake direct action to attempt to directly enact desired changes themselves.
Self-expression can, in theory, in practice or in appearance, be restricted by governmental policy, economic circumstances, religious orthodoxy, social structures, or media monopoly. When such restrictions occur, opposition may spill over into other areas such as culture, the streets or emigration. A protest can itself sometimes be the subject of a counter-protest. In such a case, counter-protesters demonstrate their support for the person, policy, action, etc. that is the subject of the original protest. I believe you are organizing a protest.
I would also like to know detail about what these 'volunteer' parents will be doing. Many others have asked this question. Milk, cookies and flowers don't fly for me. This is a high school. Just sitting in the back of a room is disruptive and will distract and intimidate to many students. Remember too, Howell High at Parker is extremely over crowded.
Wendy said:
"The parents who contacted me about DOS are not bullies. I know you love all the kids at HHS, not just your own. I pray the love of Christ will shine through you as you volunteer."
Then please explain to us why, on this one day of all days, you are suggesting parents go to school with their children? What is that supposed to accomplish?? You still have not answered that question. It is intimidation and disruption, plain and simple.
To Wendy’s Volunteers
Yes, volunteer at the schools. Clean up the campus. Plant flowers. Look at the school calendar, there are numerous days to volunteer. On the 25th April, make a pledge to love everyone in the world, and allow them to seek and worship God/Christ/Allah/Wakan-Takan/etc. in their own way, or not. Make a pledge to allow them to live their own lives. Judge them not. If you are Christian then follow the words of the song, “They will know we are Christians by our love”, not, “We will beat Christianity into them by stoning the infidels”.
I whole heartily applaud anyone who volunteers in the schools. However, if the only day you’ve ever volunteered, or will volunteer, in the schools is on the 25th of April, your motives are suspect.
Wendy,
Why is a Day of Silence fine when sponsored by your group for ELEMENTARY students, but is considered disruptive when done by YOUNG ADULTS and sponsored by a group that is outside your vision of the world? I agree that bullying is a behavior that is rooted in a lack of respect for others. Your response to the thought of the Day of Silence seemed to be rooted in a lack of respect for the organization sponsoring it and the students of Howell High School. The decision to not talk is a simple, non-violent, non-disruptive, way to bring attention to that topic. It is a simple statement that says bullying is bad, without proselytizing, without disruption. This is the same goal as the Day of Silence you sponsored. Neither I, nor the others, started this discussion, we simply pointed out the hypocrisy in your message, and called it what it was. Diversity includes you, it does not allow you to exclude others. There is a difference.
A logistical question regarding volunteers: do they all have time enough for criminal background checks and the almost $50 bucks for finger printing required by the State?
If the building administrators enforce the formal background checks with finger prints, will you comply?
A large enough number of non students could present a security problem regardless of their intended mission.
Just an observation.
Chris-
I did learn from the last DOS I commented on. Political protests are not appropriate for school.
It is naive to think that this is just about bullying. While you are right, I don't like the organization sponsoing this, I wouldn't support any political protest in our schools.
Observer- Guests for one day will not require a backgound check.
"I am happy to sit down with the Diversity Council or any other group any time and talk about these issues."
!!Wendy, do you think the Diversity Council is going to contact you to have you meet with them any time soon? Really, with the way you go about business? First, you write on your blog that you hope the elementary school students come out in force and clearly from your own hand, you supported taping their mouths shut in protest against abortion. Now you are against high school students protesting by remaining silent to help stop bullying of gays and lesbians. There is just no accounting for common sense when it comes to you!!
"It is naive to think that this is just about bullying."
As a student who has participated and is planning to participate in this event, I can tell you that the Day of silence is fact just about bullying. You have no idea what the event is about because all you have done is gone up to the GLSEN website and taken all of the negative information you could find. I suggest you do sit down with some of the students planning to participate in this event and talk to them- find out why they are participating. I think you would be surprised at how many of them just want to feel loved and safe. Let me know when you've talked to parents and students on both sides of the issue, and tell me what you think the motives are then.
Also
"We can't talk (or not talk) our way out of a situation we behaved our way into. We have to behave our way out."
seeing as this Day of Silence is to stop the bullying of LGTB students, you have just implied that these students had it coming simply because they are gay. And you have also implied that the only way to stop the bullying of these students is to have them stop being gay. This statement offensive and inappropriate. You have just made yourself a bully and you have just made a clear display of your nonacceptance of the gay community. I strongly suggest you reword and rethink your comments about this Day of Silence because you are beginning to dig yourself into a hole of harassment.
How on earth could anyone interpret parents going to school with their kids as an act of intimidation?
If anything the opposite is true. They're there supporting their own kids and protecting THEM from intimidation.
Nice work Wendy. Keep it up. Don't let the haters get you down.
--Nick
www.RightMichigan.com
If anything having parents at school on the day of silence is a act of provoking the kids.
i am a student at hhs who plans to paticipate on DOS. having parents who wants otherwise at the school on DOS will just annoy the kids and quite possibly make them want to do it more.
this still isn't a good move having them there but it won't stop them from participating.
Hey you "adults" will any of you listen to the student above?
These "volunteers" by only their presence will antagonize, distract, and or provoke.
Why Nick can't or won't see that is telling.
But why should we "adults" stop our whizzing on trees and kicking our dung about as we mark our territory?
Wendy,
You had your day. I know some who participated in that one. I am pleased to report that I know a few who will participate in this one as well. Pleased because they are making decisions based on rational thought, not following the herd. I do not want protests marches at school, and agree that this would be bad. This is not, however a march, with people carrying signs. This is a decision to refrain from voluntary speech is a non-violent, non-disruptive reminder to all that bullying is bad. This has become a Freedom of Speech issue. I may, or may not, agree with the students, but I will defend to my death their right to speak, or not to speak. These parents, and parents are authority figures, you are trying to mobilize into volunteering on that particular day, are, by implication trying to intimidate students from exercising their rights. The parents WILL disrupt the school. This is a gross abuse of the power entrusted in you as an elected official. This is official bullying. It waddles and quacks. You can call it an antelope if you want, but we both know what it is.
You stated "It is naive to think that this is just about bullying."
Why? Because it was started by an LGBT organization? Do you think that while they are being quiet they will transmit bad thoughts into you childrens heads? A suggestion, you and your followers should invest in some aluminum foil and make yourselves little hats. I heard this might protect you.
Wendy, there is a big difference between what the GLSEN has planned and what you are trying to do. The GLSEN has clearly stated their concerns and intentions for the DOS. Their web site clearly explains, in detail, what they are trying to accomplish. The bullying issue affects many students, at all ages. The big difference is your counter protest with "parent volunteers" that are there in support of "concerned parents" has not given a reason for your concerns for the DOS, or your intentions. No one has any idea what you are doing other than protesting GLSEN's efforts. Since you do not have a student in HPS, you therefore are not a parent, so I can only assume that you are acting in an official capacity as a school board member. You have no right to act on your own as a board member in school issues. You need the other 6 members to officially request anything of the district. I hope you are not making any special demands of Lynn Parrish (or anyone in central administration) on your own. The fact that "Howell was pulled off the list at the request of the district" tells me you may be making such requests.
I did have a chance to speak with my high school students and they were aware of the DOS. They have no idea which day it is to occur (not a surprise to me). They have no issue with anyone participating and feel comfortable with the situation. When I asked how they would feel if many parent volunteers were in the school and in their classrooms that day to provide support, they were much less comfortable. They felt it would be a big distraction and might become a problem. Based on their response, if there is an organized plan for parents to be in the school that day, we will keep our children home. I suppose my children are not as important as the others with concerned parents that started all this though. At least my kids respect the needs and wishes of other students around them. It is too bad adults can't do the same.
curley sue said:
I also have a problem with students getting information (and there is a handout) from only one side of a platform. One sided education is indoctrination.
So this is suggested handout that you wish present the other side of.
DAY of SILENCE®
Silent for Lawrence King
Please understand my reasons for not speaking today. I am participating in the Day of Silence (DOS), a national youth movement bringing attention to the silence faced by lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people and their allies. My deliberate silence echoes that silence, which
is caused by anti-LGBT bullying, name-calling and harassment. This
year’s DOS is held in memory of Lawrence King, a 15 year-old student who was killed in school because of his sexual orientation and gender expression. I believe that ending the silence is the first step toward building awareness and making a commitment to address these injustices. Think about the voices you are not hearing today.
What are you going to do to end the Silence?
Is it your platform that bulling, name-calling, harassment, and killing alright?
I'm wondering, Wendy, just how much research you personally have actually done on this organization GLSEN? For example, are you aware that they annually sponsor an entire week that they refer to as "No Name-calling Week"? This, very obviously, is to open everyone's eyes to the constant name calling that occurs in ALL schools across the country. Are you also aware that this year's Day of Silence is in memorial to a 15 year old boy who was shot in the head by a 14 year old classmate IN THE CLASSROOM? What a sorrowful event that is. Think of the number of people whose lives are forever changed by this event. The prosecuters office in Oxnard, Ca. where the shooting occurred hasn't decided if they're going to try the 14 year old as an adult or juvenile. If he's tried as an adult he faces up to 50 years in prison. What answers do you have to that, Wendy? Are you against others memorializing people who have been killed for their different beliefs, their different life-style?
Try looking at GLSEN's front page of their web-site. This statement is written there:
"GLSEN envisions a world in which every child learns to respect and accept all people, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity/expression."
Now, here's something that you might actually relate to:
"Love one another".
It is unclear to me what will be gained by volunteering on April 25th. Are you going to be following your young adult from class to class? What will you do if he or she or even you are approached by someone who is being silent? That individual may even offer you a card stating why he is not speaking. What will your reaction be?
The only reason that has been expressed here is that there is a concern that your child may be presented with only one side of an issue. It that really bothers you then he or she needs to hear other views than your own. You are way over protective and you are only providing one side the issue. Someone needs to volunteer to provide another viewpoint.
hmmmm - teachers don't seem to like the idea of parents volunteering in the schools. I think that should raise a big red question mark in your minds, parents. Teachers are surveying kids in the classroom about the Day of Silence? Was that approved by the curriculum committee? No, it wasn't. When you deviate from the classroom material, I think it is supposed to be approved first. I believe the school board has told this administration that no surveys are to be given to students without that permission. hummmm, blatant disregard, again, for the policies of this district. Is anyone in control there??
I would suggest that parents read "The Political Hijacking of the Classroom on the Day of Silence" by Laurie Higgins and see if you agree that there is an agenda hidden in this Political Action sponsored by the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN). Yep, there is.
Vicky, Did I miss something in one of these blogs? Where does it say that teachers don't want parents volunteering in the schools? And where does it say that teachers are surveying the students about anything? I may be missing the boat here but why would a survey need to be "approved" by the curriculum committee? I would bet that a good number of teachers do surveys for any number of things. Survey information can be incredibly useful. We do surveys all of the time where I work and it's done to improve things, get peoples opinions on any variety of subjects. So, please explain to me why a survey would need to be approved by a curriculum committee.
Ahhhhhhh, the twist of a homophobe...
“You don't have 1st Amendment Rights to say anything you want. Your rights stop at someone else's right to an education. Protests belong outside of school.”Fyke
“I'm sure that there will be a Day of Silence for the Murdered Unborn Babies as well. So, eventually it will just be one big social Protest rather than the education that the people of this community are paying big money for.”Fyke
lucifer, great job of copying my posts. I certainly don't get your point, but go ahead and do your research.
You're not smart enough TO get my point Vicky.
Like I said in #2 DOS thread...I can't wait for April 25th to pass so you can get back to posting about a pulsating anus and sucking sounds. It fits your personality better than this.
Nice, lucifer. Perhaps a little maturity would help you out. I'll leave the pornography to the likes of you. I'm against that sort of thing. Like playing with kittens, lucifer?
Sounds a little naughty, care to share??
all anyof you are doing is twisting something that was plain and simple to begin with and making it imensly out of control.
all this is, is to show there is/can be diversity in the schools towards gay/straight/bisexual people.
nothing needs or should be taken this far out of control.
the volunteers.
as i said before they will just make things worse.
everone bickering about every little thing:
will make this way more worse than before.
curley sue and lucifer:
maybe if both of you gained some maturity you could see the whole picture.
curley sue: the book that you mentioned earlier:it is just one persons opionion on GLSEN; just because you agree with it doesn't mean its true and you have to shove it down everyone else's throat.
melomilo1 - what book is that??
Vicky, Since you mentioned the book I'm a bit surprised that you don't remember it. You referenced "The Political Hijacking of the Classroom on the Day of Silence" by Laurie Higgins. Really, don't you read your own posts?
Why does Wendy Day take all the crap (besides Vicky who i could care less about) but i mean, Wendy does have her opinions, but the school board isnt just Wendy.
feathers, that isn't a book I was referencing, it is an article I read. Sorry, I wasn't thinking in terms of a book.
Well, how many crusaders, sorry I mean volunteers, do we have for Friday’s Day of Silence event? What have you volunteered to do? If the volunteers remain as quite as the protesters, all should work out well.
So I was able to witness this sad excuse for a protest, and I have to say, it really is a sad day when we have our security guards protecting a rock surrounded by a group of....people. Is this really what school is for? This is almost a hostile work environment. Let alone the cause. Why do people really need to bring this gay awareness crap to school. Leave this stuff at home. When God created man, he made woman. Notice he didn't make man and man, or woman and woman. It was man and woman for a reason.
It was man and woman so that they could reproduce. The story of god creating man and woman has nothing to do with a prejudice against homosexuality. Also, religious beliefs are based on faith and not proven fact. It is all based on interpretation and is not necessarily the truth, and so, it takes us right back to the beginning: a difference of opinions.
The Day of Silence was not meant to be a hostile event. It was made hostile by counter-protesters, who chose to yell threats at those peacefully protecting their first amendment rights. The hostility remained with the counter-protesters when the participants in the Day of Silence chose not to react. Administration officials were outside for the protection of participants as a result of the cruel things being shouted at them.
auvrimarie -
You are right, God made man and woman so that they could reproduce. (at least you acknowledge the biblical story). God is respectfully capitalized, being disrespectful doesn't make your point very strongly, or maturely. I would suggest that you actually have no idea why man and woman was created and that you are trying to twist the facts to justify abnormal behavior. I also suggest that you are no expert on "the truth" nor the proven facts. We can agree that there is a difference of opinion, but that's all it is. Nothing worth dying for.
You said "The Day of Silence was not meant to be a hostile event." Well let's examine that. It most certainly was an attempt to force your views on others. I think that is hostile to those that don't have the same opinion as you. So, if all the people would have just sat back and let you all do your thing that would have made you happy and right? Do you sit by and allow other people to have their opinions or are you trying to change their minds? Is it only fair when you do it? You brought a protest into the school and you need to be accountable for what happened when you did that. You created a divisive environment. You did that. You weren't being peaceful, you were being peaceful as long as you were allowed to force your views on others.
So, admittedly, your protest did nothing to end bullying, teasing, or name calling. In fact, it made the difference of opinion wider and the reasons for students to come together more difficult. We shall see how the Day of Silence for Abortion goes - how peaceful will you be then??
I did not shove my views at anyone. Having the day of silence made the topic open for people to ask about if they wanted to know. In the event that a person asked what the protest was about, an explanation would be given to them. There were no protesters forcing other students to read things or hear about a certain view point when they didn't want to. I have great respect for people who have different views than I do and I have no intention of changing anyones view on any subject. My only motive was to present another side of an issue to give people a greater, more well rounded idea of what has been going on. People who were not interested in our view kept their preexisting view. Students who were interested in the protest, students who came to protesters and inquired of their own volition either kept their preexisting views or possibly examined their views based on their own decisions. Any change in a student's belief happened because of the student's choice to ask.
The counter-protesters who yelled and spoke cruelly against participants did so on their own choice. They were not violent because students were protesting, they were violent because they were unable to accept the fact that students had different beliefs than they did. If anything, the counter-protester brought more attention to the abuse and discrimination that happens to LGTB students and their allies, and made more students wish to become allies.
I respect the fact that some people have different beliefs and opinions than I do. If I happen to talk to a student protesting abortion on the abortion Day of Silent Solidarity, we may discuss (most likely in the form of writing back and forth so that the student could maintain his or her silent protest) our different viewpoints, but I would never strike out in violence or in derogatory terms.
Seriously – I’m not sure what the purpose of your implication that we’re not people is supposed to be.
Just because God didn’t create “Adam and Steve,” as the popular euphemism goes, doesn’t mean that he doesn’t want them to exist. If God made Adam white, does that mean he hates black men? If God made Eve brunette, does that mean he hates blonde women? If God made Adam and Even with average IQ’s, does that mean all mentally handicapped people are going to hell? Just because every variation of humans didn’t exist (and couldn’t have possibly existed) since the beginning, that doesn’t mean that God didn’t intend these individuals to exist and that he wants all “non-Adam-and-Eve-clones” to go to hell.
Besides, not everyone believes in the same religion (or interpretation of it) as you do. Laws shouldn’t be dictated by the beliefs of any one ideology.
narethe - I don't think the question is religious. It's about the laws of nature and nature's God. You wouldn't go to hell for being Steve. But as Eve should not have eaten the forbidden fruit, Steve should not sleep with Dave. You are again trying to equate homosexual activity with a definition of a person. Homosexual activity is a verb, not a noun. It is a choice, is it not, who you sleep with or even to have sex at all? Some men want to sleep with little kids, but just wanting to do it doesn't make it right. We go back to the laws of nature and nature's God. Is this making sense? I really am trying to have a discussion, but I don't understand your argument yet. What is the crux of the argument? You want to be allowed to sleep with whomever you want and making it okay for others makes it okay for you? If that isn't it, can you tell me in your own words just what it is you think you are missing?
I would have hoped that you understood the crux of my argument, but in case your head’s been in the sand, I can recap. I support the existence of all LGBT people and support giving them full and equal treatment under the law so that they may live their lives in happiness. Homosexuality is neither a disease nor a mental disorder; it is not a choice; and it is not against the “laws of nature.”
Also, your comparison of homosexuality to pedophilia is a gross misrepresentation. In a homosexual relationship, both people are consenting. In pedophilia, both are not. Pedophilia is terribly and absolutely immoral for reasons that I’m sure we both agree on.
“You wouldn't go to hell for being Steve. But as Eve should not have eaten the forbidden fruit, Steve should not sleep with Dave.” – So you’re saying that you believe that you won’t go to hell for being homosexual, just having homosexual sex? In this case, why are you opposed to the Day of Silence? It’s not advocating for sex (seriously, it’s a school!). If you don’t believe a person is immoral for simply being gay, why are you “punishing” them (by opposing the DoS) for something they haven’t done, unless you really DO believe they are immoral for simply being gay?
And yes, I do know my English. “Homosexual activity,” is an adjective followed by a verb; “homosexuality,” on the other hand, IS a noun. I’m talking about homosexuality. What are you talking about? To quote myself: “People (besides you of course, who seem to have been caught up in the idea of sex) have learned by now (33 years later) that homosexuality is not only about sex. Is heterosexuality all about the sex? No; and neither is homosexuality. Both are about loving, caring relationships.” Why are you so caught up in the sex, Vicky? If it’s distasteful to you, don’t have it; accepting homosexuality doesn’t mean it’s necessarily your personal cup of coffee.
What “laws of nature”? You continue to be vague in your answers, so I’ll have to guess on this one too. Are you saying that homosexuality is against the “laws of nature” because homosexuals cannot reproduce? Neither can infertile (heterosexual) couples. Is the marriage/sex/existence of infertile couples against the “laws of nature” as well, just because they can’t have kids? Should “infertile unions” and marriages be disallowed? Should infertile individuals forced to have their relationship unrecognized by the government, and not receive any of marriage’s benefits to themselves and the children they adopt? Should infertile couples be denied all of this even though they love each other just as much as any couple other does?
If that hasn’t addressed anything you’re getting at, then I don’t understand the crux of YOUR argument. It’s rather difficult to answer your questions when your posts continue to be vague and your opinions largely unsupported.
Vicky-
"Nature's God" happens to be your own personal belief and therefore remains a religious statement. If homosexuality is in fact against your religion, then it is fine for you to be against it, however, you should not try to force your religious beliefs on the others in the discussion. I am sure that everyone here would be glad to partake in a healthy discussion but it is not appreciated when you make derogatory statements, or when you accuse people of things that you do as well.
Also, though it has little relevance to heart of the discussion, homosexual activity is not a verb. It is an adjective followed by a noun - both you and Narethe are wrong in your arguments.
auvrimarie - "Nature's God" happens to be historical, not particularily religious. Would you read a book on the subject if I suggested it? It's hard to explain on the space limitations of a blog. The laws of nature and nature's God isn't my personal belief and is not a religious statement. I do believe the statement, but it isn't my personal statement. I've never spoken of homosexuality in religious terms except to equate the homosexual activity with that of Eve and it was in responst to narethe's reference to Steve. You are making a lot of assumptions and judging me for what you think I believe and not by any conversation we may have had. I will be happy to have that dialogue with you any time, or anwer any questions you respectfully ask of me, but could you give me the same courtesy of asking before you assume, like you want me to do of you? You seem like you are trying to teach me something, and I am willing to listen, but I would also like you to not put sinister motives to what I have to say as well. I have history on this subject and we just might teach each other something?? Just maybe. I've also never said I was against homosexuality, what I have said is that people in authority over you should not lead you to discover your sexuality and I think that minor children shouldn't be engaging in any kind of sexual activity at all. Especially not casually. I have also never tried to force my beliefs on anyone. What I have said is that Christian students should be afforded the same rights as any other group and should also feel safe at school. There are some in my group who are very against homosexuality, but I have personally never made that judgement. I can't control what everyone thinks and with 2000 people, is it any wonder that we don't all think exactly the same on every subject? What I think is what I have stated above, not now, and not lead there by GLSEN or Triangle Foundation, or any other group with an agenda to use you to advance their cause. I think if you will look at the comments I have made, I have said ALL kids should come to school and feel safe, we don't need to single out particular groups, just ALL kids.
You should also reread how you have spoken to me - not always respectfully and not always kindly. So could we agree that both of us should be a little nicer and talk rather than accuse?
I repeat: what ARE the “laws of nature” and “nature’s God”?
“I’ve also never said I was against homosexuality” – You’ve got to be kidding. Your references to homosexuality ooze in obvious hatred of it.
“what I have said is that people in authority over you should not lead you to discover your sexuality” – People with authority aren’t leading anyone to discover their sexualities. I think the key would is “your sexuality” – your being a possessive noun, indicating that sexuality is a personal thing that can only be discovered by the self, not someone else.
“and I think that minor children shouldn't be engaging in any kind of sexual activity at all” – I believe auvrimarie already addressed this and agrees with you , as do I. Once again, why do you equate homosexuality with sex? Just because you’re gay, that doesn’t mean you’re having sex, just as heterosexuality doesn’t equal sex either. LOVE DOES NOT EQUAL SEX.
“I think if you will look at the comments I have made, I have said ALL kids should come to school and feel safe, we don't need to single out particular groups, just ALL kids.” – Many kids already feel fairly safe in school. Other groups of kids do not. The Day of Silence is meant to lift up one of the groups that is often left behind to be at the level of everyone else. Opposing the Day of Silence isn’t helping ANY child, let alone all. If you want to help ALL children, start an anti-bullying day/program/event/etc. Why would you oppose an event for just one often-forgotten group? If anything, it would make your job easier for you. You are purposely keeping the LGBT ones down.
And if you were only worried about students having sex, you would be concentrating on sex in general (like the sex education classes, maybe?) and not the Day of Silence which has absolutely nothing to do with sex. If you were really against minors having sex, I would suggest that you start by targeting the sex education classes, getting the Board to ban all dating between students, trying to get all future proms in the school cancelled, or something of the like. The fact that you are NOT doing any of these things just goes to show that you’re not against minors having sex; you’re just against homosexual minors who you are convinced are obsessed with sex and nothing else. You are biased. You don’t care about “loving all,” only “hating few.”
“What I think is what I have stated above, not now, and not lead there by GLSEN or Triangle Foundation, or any other group with an agenda to use you to advance their cause.” – We’re not being used. We “found” GLSEN, they didn’t “find” us. Our PRIOR opinions about LGBT rights is what led us to discover GLSEN and the DoS. Otherwise we’d have never found out about either. Therefore, logically, GLSEN did NOT “put anything into our heads” and is not using us. Are you really so deaf as to not hear all the broken records on this blog? When my CDs skip, I usually notice pretty quickly and fix them so I can move on to the next song. Then again, I still have fairly young ears and I keep them open to hear all things, instead of closing them off just because I believe that I’ve already heard all of the wisdom of the world.
I an curious what book you were going to suggest - I enjoy reading and learning from my reading and producing questions and discussions form it. Perhaps I will pick it up and see what this "nature's God" is.
Also, I do admit that I have not been an entirely nice person over this blog, but there is that fine line between debating and fighting and sometimes it is hard to stay on one side of it, as I am sure you know. I think it is good that we can come to the agreement that we both need to be a little more considerate of each other's thoughts and beliefs.
I think it would be a very good idea to think about starting over and really listening to the things each side has to say, and also, be respectful when saying what's on our minds. Maybe that way we can understand each side, and though we may not agree with each other, we can be at peace, for that is the ultimate goal.
Auvrimarie - that was a very mature response. I would be happy to have that conversation with you any time. Can't stay long today, but I wanted to acknowledge that I read your post and am very proud of your willingness to be open to another point of view. Thanks.
narethe - on the other hand, you are apparently a bitter young person and I do not have the time, nor the desire, to engage in an argument. I throw up my hands and will leave you to your own thoughts. I wasn't trying to "kid" you, I was trying to have a conversation with you, but I'm way past having people be mean and disrespectful to me. I wish you well in your future endeavors, but plan no further dialogue with you in your present state of mind.
Thank you, Vicky. I am still curious about that book though.
Let me know when you do have time and we can start again, though I don't really know where to begin because I do not wish to have a repeat of the old debate, but rather, an mature conversation of the issue at hand. Perhaps, lets start by explaining what side we are supporting?
I am not bitter, just frustrated. But very well, if you don’t want to have a conversation with me, I respect your wish, and will stop posting. I would have liked to better understand the reasons behind your opinions, but I, too, do not have the desire to continue this dialogue if you are unable to address my questions. Thank you for the little insight you -have- given me. Have a nice day, both of you.
Auvrimarie - I'm getting that book out for you, hang in there with me a bit, if you would. We had a flood in our house this winter so lots of stuff is still in boxes. I am thankful that you are willing to read it and will get with you as soon as I find it. Thank you for your suggestion on where to start. That's a great beginning. I don't want the old debate either. I wonder if we could speak from the heart and not from any "talking points" we may have, and I also hope we can have a conversation and not just take sides and debate. I like the more friendly atmosphere of that, how about you? Do you want to do this conversation publicly here, or would you rather email me for a conversation with just the two of us? Either way is okay with me. My email address is vfyke@aol.com
If you could ask me 1 question, to start with, what is the most important thing you would like to know?
My first question for you is: Have you ever been bullied because of your sexual orientation or are you standing tall for friends? What was your experience?
narethe - I understand frustrated. I also don't think the answer is for you to just go away. This is really more important than just me or just you. Would you like to join our conversation or are you comfortable with just staying out of it? I am proud of you for your response. It sounds like you decided to express frustration rather than taking a poke at me. I know that I am older, but I have feelings too. I will leave it up to you. If you want to join in, I would be honored to have you in our conversation. Let's agree, though, not to have a debate, or always assume the worst possible position. Let's just talk, understanding that on the computer, with just raw words, and us not knowing each other at all, it is a little difficult to understand the emotion. I also know that people have tried to put words and thoughts to me that I don't think, didn't say, or didn't mean it like that. Can you allow me the opportunity to define my views on my own? Do you and auvrimarie know each other? Are you friends, or just acquainted? Do you think your own sexuality is settled for you in your own mind? (not asking what it is at this point). How old are you? (just want to know so I can be age appropriate, and I don't mean that disrespectfully in any way). Do I have to walk on eggshells, or can I be honest without offending you? (I can handle either way, just need to know so we don't get off track or so I don't hurt your feelings. I never try to do that in a serious conversation, but it can happen easily when you don't know the person you are having a serious conversation with).
So, both of you, this is my first step. Please feel free to take us in a different direction, or to outline the conversation yourselves and I will try to stay on track. I have never been a person of few words, so don't think the worst if I forget to address a single point, or go on way too long without taking a breath for you to talk back. Any other ground rules you'd like?
the student leader of Rancho Cotate High School's controversial Conservative Club led an off-campus protest Wednesday against gay rights.
Tim Bueler, 18, president of the club and the related High School Conservative Clubs of America, joined about a dozen protesters in a lunchtime demonstration across the street from the Rohnert Park school.
We need one of those clubs at our school. Maby i'll start one
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